I'm a fan of Fat Lorenzo's because I love cheese. Pizza Luce is a close second.

Jugglernaut

harmony * grace * compassion

I love love love Broadway pizza's chicken club pizza. What did we do in the dark days before chicken and white sauce on pizza?

Maybe I don't have a particular recommendation for Phoenix, AZ, but I would have to say that the acclaimed Pizzeria Bianco (highly recommended by Oprah's cabal) is good, but not worth all the hype.

An out of town visitor desperately wanted to try the place, so we obliged. No reservations accepted, so you get there about an hour before the place opens, wait in line for about twenty minutes to be told you will be approved for seating in approximately an hour and a half.

At which point you proceed to get very drunk at their quaint little bar located in the reconverted house next door. But no hard liquor is served, so you'll be drinking expensive wine and beer to service that need.

But the pizza was good - more of a traditional style than most pizzas with very fresh meats and vegetables. Although my taste buds had been dulled by too much wine.

Without the wait, it would have been worth it. As is, the wait and parking issues will drive you to one of the other thousands of restaurants in our fair metropolitan Phoenix area.

I can't help myself. I must state that the stuff called "New York Style" pizza is terrible. It's almost inedible with the flimsy, soggy crust and tasteless sauce. But it's that greasy sad excuse for cheese that really gets my goat. Anything you have to fold like origami to eat is not worthy of the descriptor "Pizza". And yes, I've had it in NYC. To be clear, Lombardi's and other coal oven style pizza is not included in my rant. OK, I had to just get that off my chest.

It's kinda far for you.
They had a contest to make art about Flying Pie, and my video won me 5 free pizzas! The guy that made a statue won the year's worth of free pizza.
Unfortunately, I live in SoCal, so my brother got to redeem my winnings.
The pizza is good too. More known for unusual toppings than the crust, though.

Well, I have to admit that I'm a sauce man. Crust comes in second, however.

It's hard to get a decent pizza in the suburbs of Houston. My kids will eat Pizza Hut, but frankly I'd rather have a frozen Red Baron!

When I was a kid in Cleveland, my Dad made pizza on Saturday night. Sure, it came from a Chef-Boy-Ar-Dee mix, but it was PIZZA! I can still smell the yeasty goodness as the pie sizzled in the oven, covered with provelone and salami. Now *that's* eatin'!

Speaking of pizza and the Chef, take a look at these!

http://retro-images.tjs-labs.com/gallery-view?allfields=PIZZA&span=100&sort=B&log=B

http://retro-images.tjs-labs.com/gallery-view?allfields=CHEF%BOY&span=100&sort=B&log=B

Okay - I won't weigh in on the Crust vs. Sauce Argument b/c I'm a Low-Carber and both are "Taboo" (although I suspect that sauce is "less-so").

But I will chime in with an 'observation.'

I did several stints with various Fast-Food "Pizza" Operations over the years...

Didja know that - when you work for one of these joints, you actually reach a point where you can NO LONGER SMELL the pizza?!!

(This might relate back to the earlier "Ban Microwave Popcorn Post" actually!)

Yup. It's true! My longest Pizza Gig was as a (self-proclaimed) "Pizza Sl*t" @ Pizza Hut (my first job - waitressing - I lied about my age when I was 15!). My shortest stint was as a Delivery Driver for Domino's (No comment!).

But, in any case, it was weird because - after several years at Pizza Hut, I would walk into the restaurant and NOT BE ABLE TO SMELL A THING!!!

Years later (I've long since gotten a "real job!"), I *can* walk into a Pizza Hut and I *can* smell it - now!

Just a little esoterica for ya'all (Heck, I'm not even a southerner!!!)...

...Although I can't help but wonder: If one were constantly exposed to the stench of burning microwave popcorn - would you develop a similar "immunity?"

(I'm not offering myself up as a Guinea Pig!!!)

The wife and I have taken to buying Red Baron or Freschetta* cheese pizzas and topping them with fresh, natural toppings. The self-rising crust is as good as the crust from most pizza places, and the sauce is good too. Saves us a bunch of money, or at least we'd like to think so.

*What difference it makes I do not know as they are both made by Schwan's Food Company of Marshall, MN. They have to be the same pizza, just in different boxes.

We used to get schwans. We stopped because we don't have a big enough freezer to stockpile all the food, and it was actually a bit expensive. Trader Joes has better frozen food anyway. Any time we see a Schwans truck my husband always, without fail, says "Stop looking at me, Schwan!"

(I'd log in/register, but the site won't email me my password, which I forgot.)

I'm a low-carber as well, although now I'm just watching them and restricting the portions, rather than regard them as The Grains From Satan's Fields. So I end up eating part of the crust - say, the tip, and the rim.

Boy, I hope this comment gets cached by Google soon, b/c posterity needs to know this.

I'm glad to hear no one defended New York pizza. I always enjoyed how they'd take a congealed slice that had been sitting out for three hours and put it back in the oven for you, as if this performed some Lazarus-like miracle. The crust still tasted like a shoebox lid.

I gave up on ordering "extra sauce" from the local Pizza Hut because I'd pay for an extra topping but get two molecules of sauce as opposed to their customary one. It could have just been that particular restaurant, though; they actually went out of business because they couldn't get any employees that would, y'know, work as opposed to getting wasted on the job.

Now if we want pizza that isn't frozen we have to go up the hill to get it, and it's cold by the time we get back if we got carryout. At least Home Run's pizza is much better than Pizza Hut's and reheats well. And they actually put good sauce on it.

Call me greedy if you must, but it's not crust or sauce or toppings that makes the pizza, it's everything that needs to be perfect... not that it does you much good in Minneapolis... or Minnesota or anywhere in the USA, but in Toronto all three are great at:
http://www.mammaspizza.com/history.cfm
yeah yeah yeah every New Yorker says the pizza's better in New York... but who listens to their buzz anyway?

We moved to NYC 3 years ago and completely agree on "New York Style" pizza. It either has crust like a Saltine or like wet cardboard. The best pizza we've found here is at Patsy's, which is terrific brick-oven baked and has delicious pieces of fresh basil on the top.

Now if only I could find good Mexican food here. We have Yemenese, Turkish, Ethiopian and a bazillion sushi places but no decent Mexican. Bah.

I have lived in Philly, NY, and inbetween. I have to say you will get the best pizzas there.

A real pizza is the combination of the crust / sauce / cheese. One can easily eat three slices, cause they are thin.

The problem with all the midwestern pizzas is that they have too much of everything. I also find distasteful what I call garbage pizzas: mushrooms + pepperoni + sausage + onion + green pepper + etc. It's just slop.

I don't think midwesterners have a priority on food. They pretty much eat what ever is in front of them. That's the reason there are so many bad resturants / fast food resturants in this part of the country.

Noo Yawk pizza is only edible when it's right out of the oven, except... it's too hot to eat. So, yes, I'd say most mere mortals would eschew their pizza.

In the north-east Papa John's makes the best pizza of any chain, and even the mom-and-pop stores. You need to go to a Mamma-and'a-Pop'pa store to get better pizza.

Folks. Seriously. No one's brought up Chicago-style pizza? For shame. The slices are dredged up from the three inch pan thick as a helping of Mama Natalia's lasagna. And hey! The sauce is ON TOP OF the cheese! Oh, the novelty - a very delicious novelty if you only plan on having one slice, because it's all you need with these monster pies. My personal favorite happens to be at Pizzeria Due on Wabash and Ontario (in Chicago of course).

And since we're recommending places, if one were to visit Los Angeles and got to jonesing for some serious pizza, one would make it a point to visit Casa Bianca in Eagle Rock. It's not Chicago-style, but it's dang good and worth a visit (when you get tired of sushi and avocados).

Galooney's on Hennepin Avenue serves New York Style pizza and it is everything that has been described here. The frightening part is, I Love It!

I love rolling it up into a giant, greasy pizza roll. I love squeezing the grease from a slice as I would squeeze juice from an orange.

Of course, I can only eat this once a year. I need to spend the other 364 days of year working the cholesterol out of my system. And it really isn't about eating good pizza as it is satisfying a craving for salt and fat. But when you have to satisfy that craving...

I'm cookoo for Chicago deep dish pizza myself! I'm glad someone mentioned it. I almost missed a flight once to get a small pie to go. Beats pretzels on the flight.
Since I'm in LA right now for a few months I'm happy to get the recommendation above. I've also heard Abbot's pizza in Venice is good. I'm going to try some tomorrow, actually.

Two Super Bowls ago, the wife and I ordered a couple of last minute pizza's from Papa John's (along with an order of wings), brought it home, and watched the game. The pizza was some of the best we've ever tasted. The perfect combination of crust and sauce and toppings. We were completely delighted.

The next three times we ordered from the same Papa John's, the pizza was some of the most gawd awful stuff every created by a human hands. Bland, flat, no taste; too much sauce, not enough sauce.

We've given up on the Papa.

When we are not doing the frozen pizza, we are ordering from:

1.) Pizza Lucé (Garlic Mashed Potato or Shrimp Pesto)
2.) Divanni's (Veggie traditional crust with white sauce)
3.) Broadway Bar & Pizza (Anything!)

And since someone mentioned Chicago style pizza, does anyone remember Rocky Roccoco's and their pan style pizza? That name seems to bring back fond memories.

If any of you folks ever go through Lafayette, LA, visit Dino's (exit 100 off I-10, go to the Cajun Dome, then go straight, on your right). I like NY pizza, am somewhat less enthusiastic about Chicago pizza (but there are some good ones), but Dino's is a differnt animal.

The pizza reminds me alot of Shakey's (which I grew up on in Rapid City, SD and was a pretty fine pizza in it's own right back in the 70's). The toppings, however.... Crawfish or shrimp etouffe, crab sauteed in butter with mushrooms, cajun sausage with jalapeno and shrimp, even just your standrd Italian foodstuffs... I must stop now. I sound like Homer Simpson, am drooling and in danger of shorting my keyboard.

In a state covered up in some of the finest food on the planet, this is my one must-stop every time I go back to visit my folks.

When you are in the Como Park area of Saint Paul, and you crave pizza, you go to John's Pizza Cafe. They have a huge selection of toppings, four different sauces, three different crust styles, and a funky polygon of a space where you have to go through the kitchen to the basement if you need to use the restroom. (Don't touch the fresh basil thriving in the glow of fluorescent lights.)

They deliver, and we don't live far away, so to our kids they are the standard by which other pizzas are judged, and it's a darn good standard, too. Heck, they have a half-dozen different meatless pizzas!

I'll make the following offer: If some buzzeroni are interested, and can establish a time to congregate there, I'll spring for a large pizza of any predefined variety on the menu. Drinks are on you.

That said...

I grew up in Chicago, before Pizza Hut began delivering, before Domino's became an issue. There are two sides to the "Chicago style pizza" attitude.

The first is the neighborhood pizza joint. You'd get someone's specific sauce recipe, and variations in whether toppings were sliced or chopped, etc. But there were probably a half-dozen pizza joints in delivery distance, so you'd do a fair job of choosing when the urge struck.

But the definitive pizza was always deep-dish, and for that you had to travel. Usually the crust was made partly of corn meal, which gave it a texture and aroma that was unique. The dish was often a cast iron skillet or similar item. The toppings went in first, covered by cheese, then by a chunky tomato sauce with garlic and basil. It often took the better part of an hour to bake.

Even today, the classic story is that you drive down to Pizzeria Uno or Due, drop off one person to place your pizza order and stand in line for a table, while the rest of you attempt to find a place to park. By the time you've walked back, you are probably within five minutes of being seated.

WARNING: Pizzeria Uno franchises aren't the same. I'm not sure what's off...the sauce? the toppings? the little grill inside the pan, suggesting that the pan is for show, and not actual baking? Something's not right.

Some other variants include "stuffed" pizza, where an extra layer of crust may be put over the toppings but under the tomato sauce. Subtle variation, but still.

Classic toppings are the mild italian sausage, green pepper, onion, and mushroom type and the spinach type.

I have a recipe for what I consider to be a Chicago-style, deep-dish pizza, and if we ever have a buzzarama bake-off potluck, I'll make it.

Jacob

I just moved from Champaign, Illinois, and there was a pizza place called Papa Del's. If you're ever in Champaign, you have to go there. (It's on Green Street, in a little whole in the wall joint.) It was Chicago-style, with the cheese under the sauce (which is genius, in my book, for the cheese doesn't slide off when you take a bite), and I would do just about anything to have one again. ANYTHING.

As for pizza in general, I love how the Italians do pizza. Anything can go on a pizza. For instance, my recent favorite concoction made in my own kitchen, and would probably be heartily approved by modern day Romans, was roasted asparagus, fried beef bacon, and goat cheese. Delicious.

Being away from good pizza joints, or just not being able to find them yet in my new neck of the woods, I've taken to buying Wolfgang Puck's pizza's (in your frozen food section). The ingredients taste fresh, the crust is great, and the sauce...well I like it. WP's aren't your standard frozen pizzas.

Well! There is finally something that James Lileks and I disagree on! It's not the SAUCE that makes a pizza, it's the crust! Thick chewy crust! Forget the thin, soggy junk that comes on the "New York" style pizza.

I want a piece of pizza that holds its shape when I pick it up, which means a TON of cheese.

I even tell them to go light on the sauce unless it is pesto or garlic, at which point they may smother the THICK CHEWY CRUST!

I even like STUFFED crust!

Something I never understood is why people would put tomatoes on a pizza that already has tomato sauce.

My favorite pizza of all time came (and will come again) from The Tomato in Denton, Texas. It's Chicago-style deep-dish pizza with amazing breadsticks, served in a great place to hang out; you'd literally see all kinds of people in there. It was originally part of the Midwest-based Flying Tomato/Garcia's chain that was popular in college towns, but the husband-and-wife managers bought the joint when the company pulled out. It's one of those places that alumni still go to years later when they're back visiting the college.

Unfortunately, The Tomato is on hiatus at the moment while they look for a new location. Their original building, dating to the 1920's, was bought by an out-of-town developer (boo!) who plans to replace these vintage buildings with...fake vintage buildings and more upscale merchants (a chain drugstore will likely be built on the Tomato's footprint--not exactly a great gateway to a vibrant college campus). Most of the local merchants from the area have closed for good, but The Tomato is still actively seeking a new place. (My tribute to The Tomato is here.)

And somebody mentioned Schwan's. I always get a kick out of the fact that the back of their trucks say FISH, even if it's an ice cream truck. Perches and cream, anyone?

OK, I know no one is probably reading this thread anymore but I must mention my favorite pizza in the world. It's the one I grew up on and still my favorite even after trying pizza all over this great land of ours: Bocce Club Pizza in Buffalo, NY. What can I say? Great crust and sauce but it's the pepperoni that really makes the pizza. Why do so many places use crappy think cut greasy sausage that should even be called pepperoni? Gosh, I wish I had one of their pizzas right now. Oh, and some wings. The perfect Buffalo dinner for those whose life expectancy will be 45.

I remember Shakey's growing up in Minneapolis. And then suddenly they all disappeared.

When I left Minnesota in 1995, I found Shakey's again... in JAPAN! It was the end of my first or second week in Japan. Making our way from Kishiwada to Kyoto, my roommate and I stopped in the Shinsaibashi district of Osaka for lunch. Low and behold we found a Shakey's! We stopped in and discovered that they served pizza tabehodai (all you can eat buffet).

Of course, when being at Shakey's we expected pizza America style with American style toppings. While the pizza was good, ol' Shakey's style pizza, the toppings were uniquely Japanese—tuna, shrimp, squid (and squid ink) and... corn.

Needless to say, the experience made me rethink pizza. :-)

Oh! Japan also taught me to love deep dish pizza.

Growing up, I hated thick crust pizza, especially deep dish. Thin was in. "Hand tossed," was OK. Deep dish was out, way out. I was a thin crust boy. I did not want anything to come between me and experiencing the flavor of the sauce and toppings. (A notable exception was made for Rocky Roccoco's.)

But then I went to Japan where a Domino's or Pizza Hut medium pizza cost $20.00 – $30.00. In order to get the most pizza bang for my buck, er... yen... I started ordering deep dish pizza. I slowly learned to like it and actually prefer it, though that thick crust got in the way of the topping flavor experience.

I've now made peace with the crust and get, "hand tossed," on a regular basis. But no pizzeria in Minneapolis offers corn toppings. What's up with that?

;-)

Brick oven.
Real mozzarella cheese.
Real Italian tomato sauce.
Fresh basil, and lots of it.
Thin, crispy hand-tossed crust, with a little char from the oven coals.

The best pizza on the planet is Grimaldi's under the Brooklyn Bridge. If a slice could somehow have been freeze-dried and included with a small brick oven on the Voyager, this is the slice that would have gone. Goodfella's in Staten Island comes close.

Anything else is at best second-rate. Anything west of the Hudson? You might find something that isn't a complete horror, but it certainly isn't pizza.

And that California junk with corn, string beans, etc? As a great New Orleanean philosopher would say, it's an ABORTION!

Modern Pizza on State St in New Haven, CT.

I don't care how good you think it is, if you've not had pizza in New Haven, you've been eating bread and don't know the difference.

I went to a pizzeria in Cali, Colombia about 20 years ago. Just as we Yanks like to adapt foreign food to our tastes, Colombians do it too.

They offered peaches and cherries and other fruit as toppings (when everybody knows that pineapple is the only proper pizza fruit).

They also listed higos, whose translation we did not know, so we asked some friends: "They're these little black things..." they said.

"W00t!" go the Americans. "Olives!"

Wrong. When the pizza comes back, we find we'd ordered figs.

Figs on pizza. No wonder Colombia is still in the third world.

I never had any idea there was such a thing as "St Louis Style" pizza until we had to stop for dinner one night outside of St Louis while driving across the country. Took the O'Fallon exit, and right there was a place called Stefanina's. (http://www.stefaninas.org/)

It was freakin' incredible. Cracker thin crust, and whatever kind of cheese they used was just delicious. I couldn't get enough. It almost made it worth driving through the umitigated hell that is St. Louis.

Agreed. Papa Del's Pizza in Champaign, IL is the World's Best. I base this on the fact that Pops (Bob Monti, the half-Italian, half-Polish, all crazy founder/owner) routinely *flies* pizzas to Japan, Europe and points in between.

I personally like the thin crust best, but my wife likes the deep dish (not the same as Chicago deep dish and better) and he has a great stuffed crust.

Pops makes his own sauce and brings in fresh toppings, cheese, etc at least twice a week on special orders (in his own truck) from Chicago. Pops gets the very best grade available (there are grades of food above choice, for instance). His sausage is made special to his order.

He puts more of everything on his pizzas. Thus, they cost more, but they are worth it.

When I was delivering pizza there in the late '80s, Homecoming and Halloween fell on the same day. It was insane. People called and were willing to wait more than *TWO HOURS* for delivery, even when warned how long it would be by the phone 'chicks' (one of whom became my wife).

I have read a couple of bad online reviews of Pops and have to believe that they're from either angry competitors or the deranged.

Best. Pizza. Ever.

Hmmm. Sauce or crust? Hard to say. Either one can make or break it.

My favorite pizza (as, I imagine, is the case for many people) is the one I grew up loving. I'm from Kingsport, TN, and for my money there's only one pizza joint worth mentioning there - Italian Village. I usually go for deep dish, supreme. And what I remember about it is the meats. I don't even know what they all are, but they're good. The owners are actually Italian - or at least they were when I was there - and they also owned a fine-dining establishment that I like, too - Giuseppe's. You could get the same pizza there if you wanted, but I always got the Chicken Marsala.

I haven't had anything remotely like their pizza anywhere else. I guess my favorite pizza in the Cities is Gina Marie's. A lot of people seem to like Davanni's, but I prefer their subs.

I actually like Papa Murphy's okay, although my kids say it's "Nasty". I guess of the big chains I prefer Pizza Hut, but I couldn't really say why. Probably another case of it being one of the first pizza's I had. Pizza Hut was where we went after football games in high school.

My wife's from Wisconsin and thinks there's no better pizza than Rocky Rococo's. She's made me try it a couple of times. Meh.

In Green Bay we sometimes got Hansen's pizzas - they were take-and-bake before Papa Murphy's came along. That was pretty good stuff.

When I was in Atlanta we often ordered from Magic Mushroom, but I don't actually remember the pizza at all, just the name. I was in college and that seemed like the right place from which to order pizza.

For wings, though, we went to JR Crickets. Mmmm, wings.

I agree that Pizzeria Bianco (while good) is somewhat overrated for all the raves it gets. But after living in Phoenix for more than 20 years, I can say without any hesitation that the best pizza in town is at Spinato's. I think there are three of them around town but the one by my house was at Glendale and 12th Street. Thin crust, plenty of excellent sauce, fresh toppings, etc. I had them on speed dial.

Just wanted to give a shout out to James. Keep up the good work. When you get tired of the weather, come down to the Cayman Islands!

Crust is king! Or, rather, the proportions are everything.

I've had deep dish AND NY-style thin crust which I've adored, and both of which I've detested.

"Deep dish" is tricky because at one extreme its a giant wad of character-less dough you're paying thru the nose for (really just uber-thick crust that's not very crust-y) and no more toppings than a thinner pizza -- or you get a true pie but the proportions veer the other way. I was in Schaumberg west of Chicago and ate at one of the much hyped Pizzaria Uno's and was very disappointed -- it was a true deep dish, with the emphasis on the filling, but to the extreme of the number one ingredient being a monstrous OD of italian sausage -- there was almost no cheese or sauce, much less crust. It was friggin' gross.

Well done NY style is to die for, but it is apparently hard to find -- thin crust with a bit of crunch, even in the center (has to be overdone by Pizza hut standards) and the pepperoni on top of the cheese. The pepperoni edges cup upward and are a little toasted, not just lying there limp and soggy -- and a liitle cheese that has dripped over the edge and become scorched is the piece de resistance.

Too many greasy toppings, cheap oily cheese, or too much sauce all ruin the consistency of the crust.

Hmmmm.

1. Agreed on "New York Style". Every time I've ever tried that style of pizza it's turned out pretty horrible. Try pizza in New Jersey instead.

2. A great pizza snack that's not frozen is to use a flour tortilla, put on some tomato sauce, cheese, some toppings and then bake in a toaster oven, regular oven or grill. If it doesn't fit, fold it in half.

3. The flavor is mostly in the sauce. If you're being served lousy pizza then it's most likely that they're using canned sauce.

4. It's better to make homemade pizza on the grill rather than in the oven, even a gas grill is better than a oven. The crust will be crisper and the pizza will cook faster.

5. You can buy pizza dough from most pizza shops for a couple bucks. Take it home, press the pizza out with your clean hands. Don't throw the bloody thing around, that's not how to make pizza. Put on sauce, cheese and toppings. Then cook on the grill.

For take out or order in we like Panago. Their primo capicollo is very good, and quite spicy (Spicy sausage, banana peppers, couple of types of cheese, roasted garlic, yum!)

For going out the best in town is The Flying Wedge. Just super deluxe pizza. Both traditional and 'exotic' toppings. There is a location where I work and I always have to resist anything with roast garlic since I work on a public service desk.

Oh, and I prefer thin crust over traditional. But it doesn't really matter as I never finish the crust. Drives my husband crazy.

Let Me Rant!

I'm fortunate enough to live in Italy (for 7 years now) and can perhaps add some insight to the "crust vs. sauce" debate, at least from a theoretical standpoint. In Italy there are reportedly 22,000 pizzerias, and they all use the same sauce. Tomatoes ground up with a little salt, nothing else. No tomato paste, no high fructose corn syrup, just fresh tomato sauce. The only area for variability is the crust, and it is essentially a regional choice (northerners prefer crispier, NY-style, as well as Romans, while in Naples and much of the south they like their pizza doughy). One pizza per person is the standard, as by U.S. standards all Italian pizzas are thin crust (and they are all the same size). You have to hand it to American purveyors of pizza for their creativity, but nothing I've ever had in the states comes close to any local pizzeria here. Nothing. It's like the difference between getting your Mexican food at Taco Bell or in deep Mexico, there's no comparison. So my recommendation? Come to Italy...anywhere!

Sorry about that, I hit "reply" instead of "add comment". So my deep insights on Pizza will be exclusively yours, forever!

Cheers,
Bart

Sorry about that, I hit "reply" instead of "add comment". So my deep insights on Pizza will be exclusively yours, forever!

Cheers,
Bart

Sauce is key and is often inadequate.

We order SAUCE on the side

Be sure it is pizza sauce - they'll bring marinara

The cheese needs to be good and pie should have some burn on it.

O.k, fine I won't idily sit by while people tout their provencial pizza biases. I say Imo's pizza,A St.Louis specialty of the fabled "Hill" area, is a great balance of thin, cracker crust, small nuggets of sausage, subtle sauce and wrapped in yummy "provel" cheese.

Hands down in the Twin Cities area is Davanni's Pizza. They have a Pepperoni Pizza Hoagie that men (and small monkey-like creatures with huge facial features and a hankerin' for a fantastic sandwich) have killed for.

If you are in the Phoenix area, I must recommend Organ Stop Pizza in Mesa. The pizza is so good and greasy it will stop your organs!! I kid. The pizza is really quite good but the entertainment makes it all worthwhile. They happen to have one of the world's largest surviving Wurlitzer organs that is played during supper. Nothing like hearing the theme to Star Wars belted out like it was the Phantom of the Opera Overture. But bring cash as they do not accept plastic.

Also, Rocky Roccoco's (sp?) still exists in La Crosse, Wisconsin.

Oh,dear God in Heaven.

I live in Northern New Jersey, about 20 miles from Manhattan, birthplace of American pizza (circa 1906, according to a Food Channel documentary on the perfect food). EVERY town in a 40-mile radius has at least three pizzerias. But I'm not talking about chains, like Domino's, Pizza Hut, Papa John's, etc. The first time I even heard of a chain was in 1987, when I went to Atlanta and someone suggested going to Domino's for pizza. I had no idea what they were talking about. Around here, they're ALL independently owned and operated. And 90% of them are fantastic. Go into Manhattan, and they're even better--Patsy's is good, but my absolute favorite is John's on Bleecker Street ("no slices"), an old-time hangout. Coal-fired ovens, thin, crisp crust, and a divey atmosphere. The best.

Apart from the Pizzeria Uno-style deep dish (which is OK, but not real pizza), I have never had any decent pizza anywhere outside the NY metro area (ditto bagels, which are horrendous anywhere but NYC and environs).

Hey, you guys do a great tuna hot-dish and Blueberry Buckle, but leave the pizza to us!

The best pizza of all time was made by Johnny Ray's in Duluth. Home of the $5.00 Pizza! (But only on Mondays) Sadly, it's been gone for a few years now. Anybody who ever had one knows what I mean, though. In spite of it all, Bulldog Pizza in Duluth is also fantastic. In the Twin Cities I haven't found better than Papa Murphy's Chicago style or Davanni's deep dish.

I agree. I lived in NJ once and the pizza, bagels, and for that matter sub sandwiches are the world's best. The stuff they serve in the Mid West is a pale immitation. MN should stick to service lutefisk and pickled herring in a ''hotdish''.

I used to think that tons of sauce was the key, and I always thought pizza never had enough.

Then I started making my own pizza.

Too much sauce turns it into a soggy mess. Too much of anything with liquid in it, like tomatoes, has the same effect. Too much of anything with oil in it turns it into an oil slick. Tricks like putting the cheese on the bottom don't really work.

I make tomato sauce fresh, just tomatoes, garlic, olive oil, salt, and pepper, but I boil it down until it's almost a paste. Even then you can't use too much.

The solution is to throttle everything else back: not much cheese, not much in the way of toppings, and thin crust. then eat more slices to fill up.

Of all the places I've lived/worked/eaten--including many with higher-profile pizza reputations--Columbus, OH was hands-down the best.

Best local family-owned pizzeria: Enrico's in Dublin, on Columbus' northwest side. Small and unassuming, but get a pepperoni pizza with a "quart of salad" here and you'll think you've died and gone to Italy. Just don't try going during the 2 weeks every year when the place shuts down while the whole family DOES return to Italy for vacation. My wife and I ate here at least once a week while I was in graduate school at OSU.

Best regional chain/delivery pizza: Donato's. Eat this once and your subsequent response to Pizza Hut/Dominos/Papa John's/etc. will be like the Scottish response to anything, well, non-Scottish: 'If it's not Donato's, it's CRAAAP!'

If either crust or sauce is off, the pizza is bad.

As to style, it's Chicago-style. The east coast pizzas I've had pale in comparison. Basically they've all been wet cardboard with "toppings." No sauce can make up for that stuff.

Rocky Rococo's is still in MN actually... There is one in Brooklyn Park on Brooklyn Blvd. And they are all over Wisconsin if you ever travel there. I make a special trip to the N. Metro every now and then for it.

Tomstiff: Try Palio's. Good crust, great sauce, and even better toppings. No delivery (although Takeout Taxi may deliver Palio's), but much better then generic alternatives.

I had to join this conversation because it is one of my favorite subjects. I was born in Madison Wisconsin and raised on Rocky's which is still great pizza. I used to eat frozen tombstones by the truckload while I was young. I have lived in NYC, Philly, London and now Boston. All great pizza cities with the exception of London-I lost 10 pounds while living there and blame it on nasty pizza (I don't need to lose any weight.

For me it is all about the sauce. I want sauce. Many pizza has chunks of tomato for sauce and I absolutely hate chunks of tomato as a pizza sauce. The sauce should be like a fine gravy-no chunks please-or onions or any other crap, just sauce.

My all time favorits pizzas are in Boston: Santarpios in East Boston and Pizzeria Regina in the North End of Boston. Both of these places have been around forever and have the best pizza. If you ever visit Boston try them./